Canada’s government is turning its back on its people
Ottawa Citizen: Now, let me tell you who I am: Arar's statement -- read this.
Ottawa Citizen: 'My life and my career have been destroyed'
Citizen Special: 375 days of uncertainty and torture 2002
Ottawa Citizen: Second Canadian held in Syria 'We didn't know whether he was dead or alive'
Ottawa Citizen: PM rules out public inquiry
Ottawa Citizen: Arar may never find the answers he's looking for, Graham admits
canada.com: Contact the government
If this is how our government supports its people, then it is not a government worth our support, our pride. It is shameful and pitiful to be led by these spineless cowards. I still believe Canadians are a strong, proud people. If this doesn't get us riled up, nothing will, and then we're all spineless.
If our government won't step up to protect Maher Arar, what do you think your chances are if some foreign government decides to deport you to a dangerous place? Not too good.
Seth Dillingham has picked up this story on his weblog. Thank you Seth!
I don't have Trackback or referrer-tracking on my site, so I don't know if others have linked to this. If you have linked to this story on your site, or read about it on another weblog, please let me know. Thanks!
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November 5th, 2003 - 13:57
Canada didn’t simply turn their backs on this guy, their apparently the
ones who screwed him in the first place:
(http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1064541225177_21?s_name=):
“In November, 2002, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell told Foreign
Affairs Minister Bill Graham that, not only did they suspect Arar as an al
Qaeda agent, but the information had come from Canadian intelligence sources.
Subsequently, it became apparent Arar had been under RCMP watch for more
than a year.”
This line from the same story made me LOL,
“Canadian consular officials who visited Arar in jail have said he gave his
personal assurance he was not being tortured.”
Oooh, they had personal assurances. How touching!
Like Seth’s blog post, this is beyond unbelievable. I mean, we won’t take
Canadian lumber but the second the RCMP says somebody’s an Al Qaeda
terrorist they ship him off to Jordan? Ugh.
Note that Canada last year issued a travel advisory warning some
foreign-born Canadians to avoid travelling to the United States:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/10/30/canada.us.travel/index.html
November 7th, 2003 - 01:20
I’m linking to another’s link to it on my weblog http://www.livejournal.com/users/chanson/ and shared my thoughts as a US citizen.
In short: It makes me physically ill that the Fascist Right in the US is complicit in engaged in this kind of crap, and I want to use whatever legitimate democratic means are necessary to stop it.
November 7th, 2003 - 17:42
Jim wrote:
Ouch, that hurt. I apologize for making that post here.
As for the incompetence vs. malice issue, that’s really hard to judge since there’s no transparency to this process — neither the Canadians nor the Americans involved are talking, except to blame each other, which compounds the outrageousness of what happened here.
November 5th, 2003 - 15:04
On Nov 5, 2003, at 1:57 PM, Brian Carnell wrote:
> Canada didn’t simply turn their backs on this guy, their apparently the
> ones who screwed him in the first place:
> (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1064541225177_21?
> s_name=):
Please don’t say Canada there, say “Canadian law enforcement and
intelligence agencies”. Canadians would not have sold him out.
The problem here is, it happened, it’s happenING, it’s now very public,
and the Canadian government is refusing to hold a public inquiry. So,
the RCMP/CSIS sold him out, and now our government is saying “we’re too
weak to do anything about it”.
So where does that leave us? It leaves all Canadians worrying what
happens to us when we leave the country, that’s where it leaves us.
What kind of info about us does CSIS/RCMP have about us that it’ll
share in an instant? The INS/FBI had Maher Arar’s lease agreement from
1997! Where did that come from? His landlord? I doubt that. If our
intelligence agency will sell us out for nothing and then our
government won’t do anything to stop them or correct them, we’re in a
horrible place indeed.
It’s infuriating.
> Like Seth’s blog post, this is beyond unbelievable. I mean, we won’t
> take
> Canadian lumber but the second the RCMP says somebody’s an Al Qaeda
> terrorist they ship him off to Jordan? Ugh.
Don’t get me started on the US’s illegal lumber trade tactics which has
destroyed countless communities and families in Canada. Once it’s all
“fixed”, those families will still be destroyed and it is the lumber
lobbyists and the government officials in their pockets that are to
blame. And of course they will never be held accountable for it, even
though the WTO and NAFTA have both said what the US is doing is
illegal, and it’s also probably illegal under US law from what I recall
reading a while back.
> Note that Canada last year issued a travel advisory warning some
> foreign-born Canadians to avoid travelling to the United States:
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/10/30/canada.us.travel/index.html
Foreign-born? That means nothing!
http://jim.roepcke.com/5920
Jim
November 7th, 2003 - 07:04
That’s odd. I’d think Mr. Hanson would be happy to see some Third World incompetent returned to his place of birth so he can’t steal anybody’s job.
November 7th, 2003 - 12:30
What “fascist right” are you talking about?
Instead of hype, look at the reality. Incompetence explains more about this
than does conspiracy theory. A whole bunch of admistrative/clerical people
screwed this one up. This isn’t so much about ‘government policies’ as it is
about individual screw ups.
But I suppose that’s just not as fashionable as ranting about ‘fascism’ or the
‘right’.
-Bill Kearney
“Chris Hanson” <cmh@mac.com> wrote in message
news:Conversant-71362@jim.roepcke.com…
> I’m linking to another’s link to it on my weblog
http://www.livejournal.com/users/chanson/ and shared my thoughts as a US
citizen.
>
> In short: It makes me physically ill that the Fascist Right in the US is
complicit in engaged in this kind of crap, and I want to use whatever legitimate
democratic means are necessary to stop it.
November 7th, 2003 - 08:05
On 11/7/2003, Brian Carnell said:
>In short: It makes me physically ill that the Fascist Right in the US
>is complicit in engaged in this kind of crap, and I want to use
>whatever legitimate democratic means are necessary to stop it. That’s
>odd. I’d think Mr. Hanson would be happy to see some Third World
>incompetent returned to his place of birth so he can’t steal anybody’s
>job.
That’s kind of a surprising comment from you, Brian. Did you really read
what he wrote? He says that he’d be happy to compete with the competent
developers in the “third world”, and he’s also happy to see the
incompetent “first world” developers get weeded out.
I think you read way too much into his words. He didn’t say that all
“third world” developers are incompetent.
Seth
November 7th, 2003 - 10:16
On Nov 7, 2003, at 7:04 AM, Brian Carnell wrote:
> That’s odd. I’d think Mr. Hanson would be happy to see some Third
> World
> <http://www.livejournal.com/users/chanson/68870.html>incompetent
> <http://www.livejournal.com/users/chanson/68870.html> returned to his
> place of birth so he can’t steal anybody’s job.
I had to look at the from line 3 times before I realized this was
really Brian Carnell, and not Bill Kearney, writing. What the fuck is
this? We’re talking about OUR governments selling out OUR citizens,
holding them without due process, and sending them to torture mills
half-way across the world to avoid international human rights laws, and
you decide that’s a good opportunity to snipe at someone’s economic
views about IT outsourcing?
I’m disgusted.
Jim
November 7th, 2003 - 09:37
Thanks, Seth, that’s exactly what I meant. I have absolutely no problem competing with competent developers regardless of where they are. My problem is strictly with incompetent developers.
And for the record, Brian, I absolutely do have a problem with anyone being tortured for any reason. I find it incredibly offensive that you’d make any assertion that implies anything even remotely to the contrary.
November 7th, 2003 - 12:29
> Please don’t say Canada there, say “Canadian law enforcement and
> intelligence agencies”. Canadians would not have sold him out.
Likewise in your commentary about the US, please.
> The problem here is, it happened, it’s happenING, it’s now very public,
> and the Canadian government is refusing to hold a public inquiry. So,
> the RCMP/CSIS sold him out, and now our government is saying “we’re too
> weak to do anything about it”.
Too weak? You must be kidding. Too culpable is more like it. Why do I get the
impression this is more about layers of managment incompetence than government
policy? How is it more likely this is the result of each person in the chain
‘doing their job’ even though they knew this guy was going to get the shaft?
Doubtless the conspiracy here is the bureaucrats trying to cover up their
incompetence.
> So where does that leave us? It leaves all Canadians worrying what
> happens to us when we leave the country, that’s where it leaves us.
> What kind of info about us does CSIS/RCMP have about us that it’ll
> share in an instant? The INS/FBI had Maher Arar’s lease agreement from
> 1997! Where did that come from? His landlord? I doubt that. If our
> intelligence agency will sell us out for nothing and then our
> government won’t do anything to stop them or correct them, we’re in a
> horrible place indeed.
>
> It’s infuriating.
Sounds like Canada’s got it’s share of skeletons in the closet, eh?
As for lease agreements, this isn’t unexpected. You have people’s names, you
find their addresses, you interview their landlords. This is standard police
work. That some folks are somehow “shocked and concerned” is ridiculous. This
is how policework is done. Like it or not, we ask them to do a horrible job
none of us wants. That they screw up now and then should come as no surprise.
It’s horrible, to be sure, but check that insanity about conspiracies.
-Bill
November 7th, 2003 - 12:34
> I had to look at the from line 3 times before I realized this was
> really Brian Carnell, and not Bill Kearney, writing.
I believe my response here is “fuck you too Jim” for being that insulting. It
may well be your little sandbox here but don’t try getting away with that crap.
> What the fuck is
> this? We’re talking about OUR governments selling out OUR citizens,
> holding them without due process, and sending them to torture mills
> half-way across the world to avoid international human rights laws, and
> you decide that’s a good opportunity to snipe at someone’s economic
> views about IT outsourcing?
>
> I’m disgusted.
Ah, not so rosy being a Canadian this week, eh?
As for outsourcing, I’d much rather see my neighbors employed. I’ve no truck
with foreign laborers but let’s find ways for them to serve their own
populations first. There’s a much bigger picture than the short-sighted
corporate economic policies at work here. Trouble is too many people don’t see
it and won’t be able to recover until it’s too late. This doesn’t mean those
folks don’t deserve work, it means the people living near me, being part of my
community, deserve my support /first/. Cutting them out of work because it’ll
save money doesn’t help maintain the overall quality of life. It’s a
complicated issue, one not helped with tossing around petty insults like that.
-Bill Kearney
November 7th, 2003 - 12:48
On 11/7/2003, Bill Kearney said:
>Instead of hype, look at the reality. Incompetence explains more about
>this than does conspiracy theory. A whole bunch of
>admistrative/clerical people screwed this one up. This isn’t so much
>about ‘government policies’ as it is about individual screw ups.
>
>But I suppose that’s just not as fashionable as ranting about ‘fascism’
>or the ‘right’.
Bill, did you actually READ THE STORY!? Do you think it was
“incompetence” that he would be forced to sign a document without ever
being allowed to see it?
Seth
November 7th, 2003 - 15:04
On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:40 PM, Bill Kearney wrote:
>> I had to look at the from line 3 times before I realized this was
>> really Brian Carnell, and not Bill Kearney, writing.
>
> I believe my response here is “fuck you too Jim” for being that
> insulting. It
> may well be your little sandbox here but don’t try getting away with
> that crap.
You built a reputation on this site and others for insulting people, so
that’s a taste of your medicine. Not very pleasant, eh?
>> What the fuck is
>> this? We’re talking about OUR governments selling out OUR citizens,
>> holding them without due process, and sending them to torture mills
>> half-way across the world to avoid international human rights laws,
>> and
>> you decide that’s a good opportunity to snipe at someone’s economic
>> views about IT outsourcing?
>>
>> I’m disgusted.
>
> Ah, not so rosy being a Canadian this week, eh?
Or American. Or Syrian, or Jordanian. All countries played evil parts
in this guy’s suffering.
> As for outsourcing, I’d much rather see my neighbors employed.
A friend of mine knows people who live in India doing outsourced IT
work. Many of them are people who were in the US under H1-B visa or
other work permits and went back to India. There are incompetent
people everywhere, that’s beside the point. There are many *highly*
skilled workers in India, and they can have very very high standards of
living, certainly meeting or exceeding the typical IT worker’s standard
of living in the US even while making a small fraction of what an
American would get paid, and they get the benefit of being home. Of
course I want to see American workers employed, Canadian workers,
everyone, but at least I know that these workers in India aren’t being
exploited, and they’re able to live very comfortable lives doing what
they’re doing. So I’m happy for they’re doing well.
I see no evil in that situation (not saying you or others do, just
making a statement), only opportunity for them, and tough luck for us.
So we just have to make the best of it and do the best we can to retain
our value. It’s cyclical.
Jim
November 7th, 2003 - 15:06
On Nov 7, 2003, at 12:48 PM, Seth Dillingham wrote:
> Bill, did you actually READ THE STORY!? Do you think it was
> “incompetence” that he would be forced to sign a document without ever
> being allowed to see it?
It was hardly incompetence that Syria was chosen as his deportation
destination, they knew exactly what they were doing. They weren’t
going to get anywhere interrogating him within their own rules, so they
sent him somewhere where the rules were far less strict.
Jim